Maaan .. that shank and ben ... team doofus had the hair on my 
neck up ... when "Shouting Out" to the group - You were the one 
I was firstly intending that for and damn it you got left off 
the list!

Hey UK Citizen - glad your back in full effect and "HOLDIN IT 
DOWN" !!!

Im suspicious of the factual content, but it makes for such an 
interesting convo ... if any else can verify this story as true 
or pure bullshit - please feel free. Warren Christopher and Bill 
Clinton?

But .....

"Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in
Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. 
As part of
the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to 
agree to
release so-called "political prisoners." However, the Israelis 
would not
release any with "blood on their hands." The American President 
at the time,
Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren 
Christopher, "insisted"
that all prisoners be released. Thus Mr. Atta was freed and 
eventually
"thanked the US" by flying an airplane into Tower One of the 
World Trade
Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at 
the time
that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in 
the US from
all later reports."

Looks like it's one of those 'urban legends'.

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/atta.htm

Missed you, Missin'!  Welcome back.
Way  to go, Eagle Eye--but perhaps they're too young to 
understand.

E.S.D. good info as usual, thanks.

Another urban legend (can be found at site cited above) is that 
4,000 Jews were not at work on 9/11...

The "4,000 Jews" page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this 
may explain the message's rapid dissemination.

The Information Times article makes three charges:

1) Citing the Jordanian newspaper Al-Watan, it alleges 
that "Israelis remained absent [on Sept. 11] based on hints from 
the Israeli General Security Apparatus, the Shabak." No media 
source except Al-Manar claims to have actually seen the 
editorial in Al-Watan, which the Jordanian Embassy's information 
bureau describes as an obscure newspaper with a low circulation. 
Al-Watan's source? Unnamed "Arab diplomatic sources."  (A few 
newspapers called Al-Watan have Web sites  though none seem to 
be based in Jordan.)

If you think for just one second that we are going to buy in on 
the supposed suicide on TV by your sick, Queer, drug-infested 
sons, you are seriously brain dead. Your bunch of poppy headed 
faggots either think they are bound for virgins and plentiful 
fruit or they, like you, run and hide. We are not afraid of your 
sick little idiots ranting in the streets wearing bombs and 
white sheets. We have had the KKK in this country for longer 
than you sick little roaches have been alive. Islam is DEAD, 
like over! Your sick demented lying pack of queers is like a wet 
dream, FAKE and made up in your own sick little mind. If you do 
commit suicide, I'll be sure to celebrate! and we will send the 
KKK to finish your sons off! Have a nice death Osama, meet your 
maker! Suicide is the act of a coward, a pissy whiny COWARD! You 
only think as you do because you are strung out on heroin, brain 
dead IDIOT!

U.S. forces dropped a 15,000-pound "daisy cutter" bomb on a cave 
in the Tora Bora area Sunday where "substantial al Qaeda forces 
would be, and possibly including senior leadership," said Rear 
Adm. John Stufflebeem, a Pentagon spokesman. He had no 
information on whether anyone was killed.

A fuckin 15,000-pound daisy cutter?I "think"there might be 
a"few"dead.If they aint dead,they're deaf.

Johnny Walker, who found Islam at an early age (16), he, lacking 
for direction, found, read, and then followed the teachings from 
the good book, the Koran.  He then, as a rebellious teen went to 
Pakistan to lend aid with premis of following a cause he 
believed.  This new Muslim, then was indocrinated by the radical 
Pakistani Taliban Mullahs.  He drank of the poison coolaid and 
blindly followed.  Like the youngster trying crack cocaine for 
the first time, there was no turning back.  He was hooked.  He's 
just like you Ben, who blindly follows your leftists college 
professor's.

John
E pluribus unum

Like everyone I do not know what to do with Johnny Walker.  I 
feel sorry for the little rat bastard.  I too, like you Ben was 
young and dumb once, just like little Johnny.  His future 
certainly doesn't look bright.  What in the world do we do with 
this punk?  What in the world do we do with little punks like 
you Ben?  Maybe you'll come around.  But I doubt it.

John
E...

.


Correction!!!

I was young and dumb once.  But NEVER as dumb as Johnny or you 
Ben.

John
E...

Hey Ben,
You still hanging around, or did you get your feelings hurt and 
leave?  I told you...you let yourself in for a world of grief 
here.  I think several people have made excellent points in 
regard to your post.  My choice for the winner is that you have 
a very narrow view of things due to your belief in things you've 
been spoon fed at college.  One thing that you probably don't 
realize at your age is that there IS no black and white.  At 
your age, people tend to see things all black or all white, with 
no shades of gray.  Those shades tend to come, as Eagle-Eye 
mentioned, with time and life experience.  You have an 
opportunity here to learn from those of us who have lived beyond 
college.  Perhaps if you stick around, you'll begin to see some 
of those shades of gray, and begin to question what you've been 
taught.  Learn to look at all sides before making your 
judgements, and you'll certainly avoid being made a fool of as 
you have been here.  Good Luck with your education...I hope you 
realize it shouldn't ALL come from your college texts.

Ben,
One thing I forgot to mention...the only reason I am speaking to 
you with any respect whatsoever after the comments you made is 
that I recognise that you ARE intelligent enough to learn.  

You really make me awfully uncomfortable using that name to spew 
hatred.  Would you at least consider a different name, please?

Hi U.K. Citizen,
Thanks for the welcome back.  I share your concern about our 
move toward Iraq at this time.  I believe that we HAVE to do 
something about Hussein, but without more cause than we are 
showing now, I really worry about starting a World War.  You 
made the comment that we have enough power to take Iraq on 
alone, and that's correct.  But, do we have enough power to also 
take on all the countries that MIGHT jump to Iraq's defense?  
And, if even one...let's say Iran...jumped in, and we had NO 
allies willing or able to be involved...could it strain our 
resources enough that some of the others might move in for a 
chance to topple the only remaining superpower in the world?

I fear the outcome might be far from certain if we go in without 
world support.  I don't like thinking about which way every 
country in the world might jump.  I'm afraid that our allies 
might jump back, and their allies might jump in to gang up on us 
while they had a chance.  And, would our allies then rally?

At this point, I'm really hoping that Merlyn is right and that 
Hussein will make that fatal mistake that will unite the world 
against him to finally eradicate him.  In the meanwhile, didn't 
we revoke the law that we had saying that we couldn't send 
mercenaries to assassinate him?  Why don't we just do that?

A question for you Ben.  When you were 16 years old did you see 
things as as you see them today.  Or have you learned some 
since?  Do you think it is possible you will rethink your views 
and see them differently at the age of say.. 30 or 35?  We here 
have learned with real-world life experience, not campus 
professor provided leftists propaganda that reviles the American 
way of life.  When I was brought up I was taught how terrible 
our great system is, but still the best this world has ever 
witnessed.

John
E...

Okay Eagle-Eye,
I know I'm probably going to incur your wrath here.  But, I'm 
worried.  And, I sincerely want to know what the thoughts are of 
all the intelligent posters here.

During the campaign debates, Bush made the comment that he would 
pull our peace-keeping troops out of countries when it doesn't 
serve OUR interests to keep them there.  He commented that we 
should only get involved if it serves our interests.  Gore 
immediately stopped him and asked "What about in the case of 
genocide?" And, Bush responded...only if it serves our 
interests.  Do you think that Bush's opinion has changed now 
that we all understand that our interests are world-wide?

A much bigger concern of mine is regarding a post that E.S.D. (I 
think) upped concerning the invoking of Article 5.  It seems to 
me that some of the countries that signed that NATO resolution 
might be feeling put upon to have had it invoked for the first 
time in 42 years by Bush due to the volatility of the Middle 
East as a whole.  Article 5 says that an attack on one, is to be 
considered as an attack on all...and demands that the other 
nations be involved in helping defend the attacked country.  I'm 
thinking that if there had been attacks on England, or France, 
or any other country of a similar magnitude of the attacks here, 
there would be more support for us...specifically toward Iraq.
I guess I'm just afraid that invoking Article 5, especially 
after he had rejected treaties that had been agreed upon, might 
not have been a politically smart move.  What do you think?

Do you think he'll go after Iraq strictly on the basis that they 
have not complied with U.N. investigations?  Who do you think 
might defend Iraq?  Who do you think might side with us against 
Iraq?  Do you think this could become a World War?

I really would like to hear all of your thoughts on these things.

N.C. Gal, I hope your son is doing well. Thanks for the welcome 
back.

In respect for you I shall, but remember this and remember this 
well. It is exactly what the Koran and Allah does, spew hatred! 
It has been done to demonstrate a reality that the "servant of 
Allah" is just that, Blasphemous. There are many here that can 
easily shove the Servant of Allah a plate full of his own 
medicine! A blasphemist wrote the Koran, hatred runs through all 
of it and it is not fit to be compared to Christianity or 
Judaism. Not that any dogmatic interpretation is good, but if 
you read the Koran remember this verse "they will have their 
religion and we will have ours" it clearly demonstrates intent. 
Other verses include "And the great and merciful Allah will 
punish non believers with disease of the body". Before you 
criticize my anger, read the Koran, save your self some time and 
read just the last few verses. Look it up on a search engine. 
Your view of Muslims and Allah will change for good. And 
remember Christ when he found thieves in the house of God, yes 
he was angry! This is very much the same! How these people can 
spout the Koran and Allah as God & god's word would put Christ 
in a fit of fury!

Good Morning, John!
I'd be willing to bet that you'd never find "Atlas Shrugged" on 
Ben's required reading list, wouldn't you?  It sure ought to be 
on EVERY students reading list.  But, since it goes so much 
against the grain of the liberal policies of the colleges, I 
can't imagine that it's ever even mentioned.

I appreciate your choosing another name very much.  I truly have 
no problem with your anger...we are ALL angry.  But, I do feel 
that it's misdirected.  I have the Koran bookmarked already, 
Thanks.  I think the danger is always in looking at people as 
groups, rather than as individuals.  There are many Muslims who 
come here in support of America's fight against the Taliban and 
bin Laden.  My concern is that they might believe that our 
entire nation holds the views that you do.  I consider your view 
as racist, and I cannot agree with it.  But, this is 
America...and I respect your right to have it, and to speak it 
freely.  Just remember this, if you speak that you view all 
Muslims as evil, some of them reading your words might view all 
of us as just as evil.  For, what you are doing is exactly the 
same thing that you are railing against the Koran for doing...is 
it not?

http://www.rawa.org/

Do you think he'll go after Iraq strictly on the basis that they 
                 have not complied with U.N. investigations?  Who 
do you think 
                might defend Iraq?  Who do you think might side 
with us against 
                       Iraq?  Do you think this could become a 
World War?

 He'll go after Iraq with the excuse that they haven't complied 
with U.N.investigations,but we all know why he's Really going 
there....Dad's unfinished business.Which we should have taken 
care of in 91,but what the hell.
 When we go after Iraq,we will lose some allies(watch Pakistan's 
movements in the near future).
 If(when)we go after Iraq,watch Iran,Somalia,Sudan,U.A.E,Saudi 
Araba,Jordan,and Syria for indications of what will happen 
next.If the majority of these stay out of it,we'll be fine.If 
they jump in,read Revelation again.

Walter,
That's exactly what I'm afraid of.  You couldn't have stated my 
position more clearly. Thanks!

Evil, no misguided by a false prophet, yes. Have you gotten 
around to the end of the Koran yet? It is a collection of 
lessons. Some very relevant, but a thread of hate sewn into it 
that is undeniable.

You might want to look at the Torah,also.
 You sound like you are filled with hate,and are looking for 
evidence of it everywhere.You don't have to search for it....its 
all around you,in America,and everywhere else.Never squint to 
read a billboard.

That is somewhat better, Thanks.  No, I haven't read the end of 
the Koran.  The reason I haven't is because I have been told by 
other people for whom I have respect that the Koran is much like 
the Bible in that you can take anything out of context and make 
it sound however you want.

Regardless of that, I HAVE read the Bible.  And, it says to me 
quite clearly that it is not my job to judge.  God will take 
care of that.  I was also instructed to love my fellow man...no 
instructions to disregard any race or religion.  And, I was 
instructed to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.  
Therefore...I prefer to live and let live.  I'm also an 
American, a loyal and patriotic one.  And, in this country, you 
are allowed to read, believe, and even preach anything you want 
to.  And, I have the right to disagree with anything I don't 
believe.  Again...live and let live.

My point was strictly that when you go about beating up ALL 
people of a certain race or religion with your words...you are 
taking the risk that some of them will believe that we are ALL 
like that.  In my opinion, this puts us at even more 
risk...because we are viewed as being just as stubborn as you 
say they are.  It's not all black and white...

Preach on sister Missin'!

*chuckle*  Now you're scaring me!

Nah.  I think you hit the nail right on the head.  I myself 
don't follow any organized religion, but I do believe that all 
the points you made in regards to the way we should treat other 
people are totally correct.  If most of the people in the world 
would just respect each other's views, as long as they don't 
infringe on the rights of others, then the world would be a much 
better place to live in.  Keep up the great posts.

Perhaps you guys would like to know this:

http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/rca/rca_200112_91_4_eng.txt

LONDON (IWPR): The London-based Institute for War and Peace 
Reporting has reported from Khanabad, Uzbekistan, that the US 
air 
base in this city is receiving daily flights carrying dead and 
injured US soldiers. Uzbek sources at Khanabad suggest that the 
real figures of US casualties are far higher than the Pentagon's 
official totals. Uzbek army personnel working at the air base 
said 
scores of US casualties have been arriving there. From November 
25 to December 2, an Uzbek orderly working with American medical 
staff said he had witnessed the arrival of four to five US heli-
copters - carrying between them 10-15 American casualties - each
day. The orderly said the US staff he was helping confirmed the
casualties coming off the aircraft were Americans. 

A reporter who managed to enter the air base with a group of 
visiting Uzbek parents said that one whole floor of a building 
and four large canvas tents were full of injured US soldiers, 
who 
have suffered shrapnel and bullet wounds to the arms, leg and 
head. The airport sources could not confirm how many incoming 
casualties had died. One Uzbek soldier said that since October 
15 he had helped US servicemen load 20 body bags onto American 
transport planes. But he could not confirm whether they were 
dead US soldiers. 

But there is other evidence of American fatalities. One Uzbek 
officer said US soldiers had told him that four of their 
comrades 
had died of their wounds on December 1 while being airlifted to 
Khanabad. An Uzbek pilot spoke of the death last week of an 
American soldier who he had become friendly with while he was 
on the base. The US serviceman, he said, had died in the attempt 
to end the prison riot on the outskirts of Mazar-e-Sharif two 
weeks ago. "A lot of American troops died there - it was a real 
battle, " the pilot said. 

Uzbek army personnel say the atmosphere on the base has changed
distinctly in the last week or so. They say that in October when 
the Americans began deploying at the airport, they were gung-ho, 
telling their Uzbek counterparts that it would take no more than 
a month and a half to defeat the Taleban and al-Qaeda. While the 
Taleban appear to be on their last legs, al-Qaeda fighters 
continue 
to resist in mountain redoubts, with some US servicemen at 
Khanabad 
now resigned to a long haul. Uzbek military staff say 
frustration 
at this is noticeable. They say they have witnessed growing 
tensions
among American troops, often overhearing arguments and shouting 
matches.

Some people say that i'm a bad guy; they may be right...they may 
be right. It's not that i'm not trying-I just f..k-up, try as I 
might.

Is it just me or does Tarik Aziz sound like the nomenclature of 
an armpit fungus?  Just curious.

Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
and hear myself called everything from a zealot to the 
antichrist basically.  Isn't it nice to wade into the world of 
the brainwashed? 
     In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% 
of the world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 
7th grade.  And no, I am not currently, have not been in the 
past, and will not ever attend college.  
     Now, that being established, how is it that I can be 
spoonfed by leftist professors?  I hardly consider myself to be 
spoonfed by anyone.  Luckily, I've had enough time and presence 
of mind to realize what's really going on today, and I knew that 
what I posted would be replied to, probably in the most assanine 
way imaginable, by a bunch of brainwashed culture-whores, and a 
few intelligent people who just happen to have a different 
viewpoint.  So be it.
     Yes, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm here, I haven't 
run off to my own little world of pop radio and cable TV, but 
obviously, unlike most of you, I do have a life to attend to, 
and I can't be expected to check in every hour to see who 
disagrees with me.
     In closing, if any of you really feel the need to try to 
defend your viewpoints to me I can be reached on AIM as 
theraven39, but if you just want to vent, then fuck off and find 
someone who gives a shit.

TigerChan,
In this country we sometimes as children play a game 
called "Gossip".  In this game, the first person in a circle of 
people makes a statement, he tells the second person, the second 
tells the third and so on.  It sounds to me as though the 
reporter who wrote that article was reporting a whole bunch of 
second and third-hand information.  I would find it difficult to 
believe these hearsay accounts over the factual reporting that 
has included names, ranks and stations of the FOUR that we have 
been told have died.  We do know that many more than 4 have been 
wounded...but again, the reporter is again printing 
hearsay...not what he has actually seen.

Who knows if it is true or not.  The Bush administration is 
probably covering up some of the true stories of the war so 
Americans will continue to support our effort in Afghanistan.  
It is expected to have some casualties and I am sure we have not 
heard of all of the Americans and Britains that have died so 
far.  They are probably picking and choosing which casualties we 
will hear about.  They will pick the ones that will offer the 
greatest sympathies toward our armed forces.  Honestly no one 
over here will know the real truth as to how many casualties we 
really have.  Just speculation.

"I am a white, lower middle class, non-muslim student."

Okay, I'm curious.  What kind of student are you, if not 
college?  Technical School, maybe?

Re: SATs-Member of Duke University's Talent Identification 
Program?  That's how my daughter was able to take her SAT's last 
year in the 7th grade.  Oh, and I scored in the top 2% of the 
country...not to pat myself on the back.  Just to say that if I 
find that there are many intelligent posters here, perhaps you 
might too?

The reality is, Ben, that I feel no NEED to defend my views to 
anyone.  The reason I try to speak to people such as yourself 
with respect and to appeal to your intelligence is because I 
know that I am in the majority of good thinking people in this 
country.  The radical few...like you, are seriously misguided, 
in my opinion.  However, if you don't choose to stay and defend 
YOUR opinions, I'll understand...since you ARE in the minority.

Oh, and it's spelled ASININE  

as i nine [ ss'n n ] adjective 

1.  ridiculous:  utterly ridiculous or lacking sense

2.  like an ass:  relating to or resembling an ass
 

Justice,
Weren't there 15 British troops killed?  I bet those were loaded 
on American helicopters to be moved...don't you think?

I wouldn't doubt it.  There are many things that our government 
probably hides from us.  I am not saying that they shouldn't 
because there are many things that they probably keep from us to 
protect the general public.  As long as I still get my paychecks 
and there is somewhat a feeling of safety in my life then I 
could care less.

perhaps the bodies are being flown to another location for ID 
purposes, they could possibly be bodies and or parts  of taliban 
members who may somewhat fit the description of suspected 
taliban leaders?

If those were American soldiers, we would know it!

The U.S. military has no reason to hid those kinds of stats from 
the American public... 

In your post you stated:"The U.S. military has no reason to hid 
those kinds of stats from the American public..."

As a veteran of the Vietnam conflict, I am very familiar with 
what the government does with stats. They were hidden back then 
and I am sure that they are doing the same thing with the 
Afghanistan issue. I see no reason wht they would change now.

Why do you think that they would not conceal these type of stats 
now? 

Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
                     and hear myself called everything from a 
zealot to the 
                 antichrist basically.  Isn't it nice to wade 
into the world of 
                                        the brainwashed? 

But then again,that's why you posted in the first place wasn't 
it?Oh enlightened one!Verily I pray unto thee,lead me through the 
paths that thou hast chosen,and I will follow!Thou hast posted in 
red to let us know that thou art the anointed one!I beg of 
you,turn off the Playstation,and GIVE US A SIGN!LOL!!!!

Everyman: Reference to post, Dated: Sun Dec 9 04:24:13. Thanks 
for following up the article I found. I would never have noticed 
if hadn't needed to go through the back-copies of the newspapers 
I'd kept. This in regard to a Mr.Afroz arrested as you say, in 
India, on suspicion of plotting attacks in Britian and other 
nations. I happened to think this was a fairly important story, 
nothing more was made of it in the U.K press possibly because at 
this stage at least the proof against this individual is not 
sufficiently incontrovertible, but nonetheless a lot of the 
pieces do fit into place. It looks as though in this case, the 
intelligence services involved have done their job. 

Oh and by the way, when you're rich and famous and the royalties 
do indeed start coming in from your chart debut (still holding 
at number 2), please Everyman..don't forget your friends here:).

Merlyn: In an earlier post I made comparison to what happened 
in '41 and what happened 3 months ago. You're quite right, the 
nature of those attacks were completely different in who and 
what they targeted. The grounds on which I would draw comparison 
were only that they were 'surprise' attacks and that as a 
result, the foriegn policy of the U.S. government and the 
atitude of it's citizens to the outside world perhaps changed 
somewhat. Direct comparisons between these two horrific events 
are limited, but I was promted to raise some comparison as a 
rememberance ceremony was held just last week at Pearl Harbour 
where some surviving sailors returned there for the very first 
time accompanied by their families, since the attack in 1941. It 
was for them, obviously a very moving experiance to say the 
least. Representatives of the New York fire department were also 
in attendance, and who had themselves been called to duty, on 
Sept 11 2001. Let's hope you're wrong about any possible 
occurances between now and Christmas! All of your posts are 
thought provoking. I do hope your still reading the board.

EagleEye: Your post: Dated: Tue Dec 11 01:29:28. I'm sure that's 
news to a lot of people, and not very pleasant news at that...

Missin': I can't vouch for my knowledge on this matter. I can 
only offer my opinion, which quite honestly is limited. Just 
like the Afghan factions that met in Bonn, it's the old carrot 
and stick approach that comes into operation. The offer of 
financial inducements from the richer nations, trade/aid and 
such like, to set Afghanistan on the start of a very long road 
of getting itself back on it's feet, is of course one way to 
deal with things. It's difficult for me to say for sure with 
nations such as Iran and Syria who have their own agendas, as to 
which 'approach' (if I can dare say that word) is best. Mr.Straw 
our Foriegn Secratary, at a guess, may try the carrot approach 
in the act of gaining closer links at the diplomatic level, and 
in turn, gaining more influence in that way. I don't how much 
these international diplomats and foreign secrataries earn, but 
it's at times like these, where they'll really have to earn 
their money. Rule number 1 is to avoid unnecassary conflict if 
at all possible, but then again all countries were 'put on 
notice' that international terrorism was simply no longer going 
to be tolerated. I'm sure at governmental level the diplomats 
involved are testing the waters. Involvement in Iraq, is no 
doubt a completely different undertaking. Missin' I'm not really 
very knowledable on such matters. The pursuit of evidence of 
weapons of mass destruction, I'd would say is a possible avenue 
down which to proceed. As theE.S.D. has highlighted any possible 
links from within Iraq to organisations such as Al-Qaeda is 
probably the favoured option to proceed on, and at least the 
grounds upon possible military activity in that Iraq are at 
least 'seen' in that respect, to be consistant. I'm sure 
coalition governments would tread carefully and avoid any 
unwanted escalation in tensions in the region, shall we say. If 
the diplomats do their jobs right hopefully, no one single 
country will be left to take on the entire 'burden' on its own. 
The U.S. and it's coalition partners prepared well 
diplomatically and militarily before acting in Afghanistan, I'm 
sure, (or at least I hope) they'll do the same 'IF' Iraq is next 
on the list.  Although don't rule out Somalia. As far as the use 
of mercenaries is concerned, I can't comment upon that with any 
great authority as to its legitimacy, but it does sound like a 
most pleasing option!

John: It's nice to see you back, and to read your posts.   

50 men that worked for Cantor Fitzgerald held hands and prayed 
as they awaited their deaths as the floors got hotter and hotter 
and hotter,   THEY KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO DIE.  They never did 
anything to anyone to deserve a death like that.  Every day, I 
walk up the block to the deli and in the window is a picture of 
him and his daughter hugging and laughing.  The crayon 
handrwritten pleas on her note, keep saying, DADDY, WHEN ARE YOU 
COMING HOME?  WHEN ARE YOU COMING HOME?  Please think of all the 
people at Cantor Fitzerald that are not able to be alive and hug 
their children.  Think of the nightmare Christmas their family 
is going through.   THink of all of them.  Think of the cops and 
fireman and heroes that were crushed to death as their last 
thoughts in their final moments on earth where to save other 
peoppple.  Everyone, when you go to sleep tonight and your head 
hits the pillow and you pull your comforter up to your chin, 
thank the universe or whatever powers may be that you have this 
moment.  Cherish it.  Cherish life.  We cherish life like they 
cherished theirs.   FIFTY MEN SAT ON THE FLOOR AND HELD HANDS 
WAITING FOR DEATH TO COME.  THE MINUTES TICKING 
AWAY.............. WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY?  WHY? WHY?  
I walk the streeets and see the Christmas lights and they are 
pretty but why cant the victims see it?  I want them all to be 
alive.  I want the people in Pentagon to have their loved ones 
alive and I want the heros that took down the plane in 
Pennsylvania to save others to be alive and well.  On September 
11th,  St. Vincent's hospital:  All the doctors in their scrubs, 
the nurses, the gurneys, waiting outside at the entrance to the 
hospital for the people that would never come, never come, never 
come.  WHY?  GODDAMMIT WHY????????????????????

I remember seeing the movie, The Mummy Returns, where we have
the WWF star wrestler..the Rock playing the Scorpion King being
lond dead. Then there come a man who revives him and he is
about to be killed by the Scorpion King. He pleads not to be
killed and points to another person .."he is your enemy". Unsure
of who is actually the enemy, the Scorpion King replies, "We'll
see ..!!"

This troubles me what are the Americans doing in Afghanistan.
Don't they know that Afghans are real bastards. They have long
history of changing attitude quickly. They may have a good
attitude for a moment, then the next moment they might shoot you
back. The so-called paid anti-Taliban gang maybe fighting the
Taliban now, perhaps when you start to distrust them they may
be thinking of killing you next. The land of Afghanistan, no
one is safe there. If you want to be there, do your job quickly
and get off their land. I am almost certain that we see more
American dead. Just imagine this, the Americans give them 
weapons, its the killing nature of those Afghans that they will
try shooting any target ... perhaps shooting Americans for the
fun of it. You see ... I wouldn't want to go to Afghanistan.
Everyone is carrying guns, grenades ...even their 12-year old
kid is strong enough to point an AK-47 at you. Remember you
carpet-bombed their people, at least a few survivors will have
something in mind.

We'll see ..... start counting the dead.

As the world will see tomorrow, Osama is a sick boy. He sent the 
hijackers on the planes, unknowing that they were committing 
suicide. Only those who were pilots knew what was going to 
happen. All this for his own personal gain. 
Anyone who supports this sick boy is going to see just how wrong 
they are.
Islam is dead. they kill their own, betray their own, the only 
answer is that they are strung out on drugs, we should never 
fear such weak, sick maggots.
Never in my life have I seen such a lost bunch of scum. Live and 
let die!
Merlyn/|\ 

Does anyone know why we would need to deny American 
Casualties in public? Personally, If I heard that Americans 
had been killed in battle, it would strengthen my resolve to 
win the war. I don't know, maybe most Americans feel that if 
we start dying its time to give up...That's weak. I don't want 
American soldiers to die, but I'm not going to dodge the draft 
so I won't have to. We're defending freedom here, that costs 
something and it is worth something! I know that our 
government probably has lied to us about parts of this war 
and about many other things in the past, but I wish they 
wouldn't. Honesty would go much farther with me than 
cover-ups. I'm a grown-up, I can take it like a man. Why can't 
I know the truth? Shoot, UK voice is coming back to me with 
his movie quotes "You can't handle the truth!" haha. Oh well, 
I will try to find out as much as possible. Truth matters.

As for Ben - fairly impressive for a high school student. You 
have no idea what you're in for as far as life-lessons. More 
can happen to you in one year to change you than you can 
possibly imagine. Just remember what John said - imagine 
how your outlook on life has changed from 5 years ago, then  
try to imagine 5-10 years from now thinking exactly as you 
do today. Bad odds. So you've been indoctrinated by 
someone, or simply chosen to take a stand on something 
without a foundation. We have a lot to learn everyday - you 
and I both. Life is hard and life is not fair- everone learns it 
sooner or later. 
As for the lower middle class qualifier...I wouldn't be 
surprised if you were one of those people who believed that 
a lower middle class income is 80k/year. I went to school 
with people whose parents made over 200k/year and they 
thought they were "middle class" drove me nuts, I always 
though I was pretty well-off growing up, but my parents didn't 
think they were rich either. Can't believe everything they tell 
you huh?

Sorry for the needless seguay, but I just didn't see why that 
had anything to do with your post. You are who you are...

Take care all!

First couple SHOULD read..

I can't vouch for my knowledge on this matter, which quite 
honestly is limited. I can only offer my opinion.

----

My knowledge is indeed limited, but my opinions...slightly less 
so.

"Does anyone know why we would need to deny American 
Casualties in public? Personally, If I heard that Americans 
had been killed in battle, it would strengthen my resolve to 
win the war. I don't know, maybe most Americans feel that if 
we start dying its time to give up...That's weak."

Sadly enough we do have people here in the States that think 
that Noah.  They want peace and safety but don't want to occur 
any penalties in doing so.  That is who the government protects 
against when they don't tell us the whole story.  Unless you 
have top secret clearance in the government, you will never know 
the real story.  I emailed Al-Jazeera the other day to see if 
they have a website in English.  Unfortunately they don't but 
they told me they might be considering it.  Hopefully they will 
soon so we can all see their perspective on this war.

WE WILL NEVER FORGET!!  FDNY

"Well well, post a message, leave for the night, come home 
and hear myself called everything from a zealot to the 
antichrist basically."

Im sure you hear a great many things in your head .... but I 
think the term your looking for is "read".  Why is it that only 
those who do well on the SAT can have an "open" and larger 
than "small mind"?

Do have a boyfriend named UK Voices - you two assholes sound 
soooo much alike .... soooo many words just taking up bandwidth 
with zero merit and nothing to say ......



"Isn't it nice to wade into the world of the brainwashed? "

For such a "enlightened" one - you sure a stero-typing bigoted 
little puke.


"In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% 
of the world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 
7th grade."

Boy ... how it shows .........


"And no, I am not currently, have not been in the 
past, and will not ever attend college."

So I guess your a student of fudge packing?  TruckMasters is a 
great place of higher learning.
  
"I hardly consider myself to be spoonfed by anyone."

Evidently neither do you consider yourself imperfect, nor 
arrogant, or elitist - but guess what ......?  

"Luckily, I've had enough time and presence 
of mind to realize what's really going on today, and I knew that 
what I posted would be replied to, probably in the most assanine 
way imaginable, by a bunch of brainwashed culture-whores, and a 
few intelligent people who just happen to have a different 
viewpoint.  So be it."

And - what exactly is going on today?  Global Warming got your 
pantoids all in a bunch this month?


Woooo hooooo jingo boy!  culture whores ... thats a pretty 
applicable term here ....... I suppose you prefer the culture in 
Cambodia?  Who you kidding fool-  besides your pathetic self.

     "Yes, and in case you haven't noticed, I'm here, I haven't 
run off to my own little world of pop radio and cable TV"

Nope - just AOL .... phhhhhfffffft


"unlike most of you, I do have a life to attend to, 
and I can't be expected to check in every hour to see who 
disagrees with me."

Page 1, paragraph two of the UK Voices manual on how to be an 
asshole ... anyone recall this kinda crap.  Nor can you be 
expected to actually address or backup ANY of your points about 
all us brainwashed culture whores you look down on from your 
self imposed SAT pedastal.


     "In closing, if any of you really feel the need to try to 
defend your viewpoints to me"

I really dont ... you defend none of yours to anyone here - only 
accusations based upon stereotypes and your ill conceived, inane 
opinions.

"I can be reached on AIM as 
theraven39, but if you just want to vent, then fuck off and find 
someone who gives a shit."

Vent like you?  Fuck yourself.

Americans don't get the truth because they don't want the truth.
Every time death is shown on the news there is a flood of calls 
to the TV station that aired it,and the station is told how 
offensive it was,and that it was wrong to show it.
 If you will think about it,the US,and its people couldn't be 
bothered about Afganistan children or the women's rights 
there,and the information about what's been going on there has 
been available for YEARS.But suddenly we CARE.How very big of us 
to notice once it was time to bomb them.
 http://paknews.com/top.php?id=1&date1=2001-11-21  Go there and 
look at THEIR dead from our stray bombs.Oh yeah,it was an 
accident,so I guess that makes it OK in America.
 http://paknews.com/main.php?id=5&date1=2001-12-11 Look here also 
if any of you have any courage.Of course,many will say it's a 
pack of lies,since the news is not from the U.S.,because no one 
in America ever lies.Protecting freedom eveywhere?My fuckin ass.

As Eagle-Eye appropriately pointed out before, why would we get 
a report about 3 of our soldiers being killed by FRIENDLY fire 
if they were hiding information about dead soldiers?  That 
doesn't make sense to me.  I don't believe that there have been 
more than the 4 reported American deaths.  The article upped by 
TigerChan, even though written as hearsay, numbered body bags at 
about 20...4 of ours and the 15 Brits that I read about a couple 
of weeks ago would make that number just about right...wouldn't 
it?

Haha...oh applause to all of you.  If I wasn't used to this 
sort of hypocracy and circular logic from debating with strict 
christians, I might be bothered by your collective inability to 
see anything outside what you've been programmed to see all your 
lives.  
     I've read too far through all of this to remember your 
individual names, or really give a shit, really, so I'll just 
comment on a few things I can think of off the top of my head.
     Let's see, one of you bragged about your child being the 
top 2% of the nation.  Now, the united states and the world as a 
whole are two very different arenas basically, and thanks for 
the definitions.  If I can make you feel just a little better 
about your sad little life, then feel free to make yourself feel 
superior to me.  Doesn't really bother me. Hell, if it did, I 
might actually be like one of you right now.
     Anyway, ahh yes, EagleEye, you pathetic little shit, you're 
are possibly one of the most asanine,(thanks again, whoever that 
was)hypocrital pieces of shit that I have ever had the 
misfortune to come across.  You have the balls to call me 
arrogant when you assume you know enough about me to be able to 
judge me.  I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over.  I do get a kick out of how you hate me though.  
Hell, if you didn't I'd wonder what I was doing wrong.
     Well, anyway, beyond all that, while I was looking for some 
tablature, not a single one of you who piss and moan about my 
ideology on here, had the balls to get into a real conversation 
with me.  What're you afraid of?  That I might be right?  That 
evertything you've ever believed in just may be bullshit?
     Well, it doesn't matter really.  I doubt any of you would 
confront me with anything original and thought provoking, I 
suspect a few of you would even fall back on the old cliches. 
Ahh yes, how many times have I heard, "If you don't like this 
country, why don't you just get out?"  
     That's enough of a stroll down memory lane.  I guess I'll 
just be back to check on all of you later.  Have fun commenting 
on this post.

Oh, and Walter, nice job.  Glad to see some intellect is still 
out there somewhere.

I have to give a few of you credit here, I'm sure we all 
know those gung-ho, war crazed, ignorant little people in real 
life, a couple of them have posted here. But for the most part, 
this is just sad. Ben seems to be at a disadvantage, some of you 
post five or six times a day, while he posts...what, once. All 
your talk about age, and the future, and college...those are sad 
excusses for a defense. Can't anyone reply to what he's saying, 
and not just who he is, it shouldn't fucking matter how old he 
is, or what he plans to do with his life, the fact is, you 
people don't have anything real to say, so you pick on his 
age...or wording. What the hell was witht that guy? I think, 
anyone who has such a strong opinion on what is right and wrong, 
doesn't need this bullshit. People here quoting their various 
religious texts...just propaganda. Everyday, its all over, you 
know, they started planning what to do with post war Afghanistan 
before the Northern Alliance held even one city. No one is right 
in this 'war'. This is just the U.S flexing its muscles, and 
trying to recover some pride that was lost 9-11-01. I enjoyed 
it...really, by the end of the day I was laughing at the all-
purpose speeches Bush was spewing. This isn't about terrorism. 
This is hardly justice...it's blind rage. Anyone who has ever 
embarassed the U.S has faced the same fate...desturction, and 
then a pathetic rebuilding into a mini america. You know all of 
us are going to be the ones dealing with this 'war' this is not 
going to be over. Until opression is stopped, and there is no 
upper class, or third world nation, someone is always going to 
be fighting for their beliefs...any you know what? That is more 
than America will ever be able to say, so all of you, just fuck 
off and think about the shit you've ignored.

I'm not saying to anybody that we shouldn't have attacked.I'm 
saying stop turning it into a big bullshit humanitarian game.We 
need to kill every one of the people in these terrorist 
groups,and destroy the people who financed and aided them in any 
way.Trial?I don't recall a trial on 9-11!Kill em all!

Hi all,

First, 
Tiger-Chan, 
as usual, you poor lost, lost soul you are still a million miles 
from reality...

Missin',
Interesting that you mention a work by Ayn Rand.
A friend actually sent me a copy of the Ayn Rand video, "a sense 
of life."  I was just sitting down to finish watching it.  (Yes 
we now have electricity... at least enough to power the video 
cassette machine.  I find it excellent so far, and look forward 
to reading Atlas Shrugged.  I'm sure it is as great as it is 
rumored.  As being one who has been around many religions and 
sects in my interesteing life, I find it very intellectually 
stimulating.

To all,
I apologize for my absence. Afghansas.com needed a little 
attention along with other important afairs.

Hope to find more time to read and participate here.

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

Yeah, the AIM screen name intrigued me, I think I'll put myself 
out there for anyone with some balls, or ideas worth hearing can 
talk to me, my screen name is Archiee666...I'll be pretty damn 
impressed if anyone messages me.

Nice to have some support, even beyond that, it was a nicely 
phrased litte blurb.  I'm impressed.  

Walter,

You should add a verse to that very song.  You may even win $100!

http://afghansas.com/song.asp

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

According to past experience those countries you mention will 
come and support Iraq if it is gaining from the  attack, if not, 
they will just voice their concern or who knows support US. Just 
look at afghan war. Hope you know what I mean and I also don't 
think Iran and Saudi will support Iraq, they would probably stay 
at the side line. They know who Saddam is especially the Saudi 
Rulers

This war against Terrorism is more of a educational war against 
the radicals Muslims to try to make them understand that Islam 
does not teach you to kill or force non Islam into this 
religion. Once this people understand and want to live in peace 
and harmony with other religion, the world would be at peace.

The most disturbing think in my mind is, there are a lot of poor 
Muslim country in the world. Is the world Muslim community doing 
anything to help these people. All the time I only see or hear 
non muslims organization giving generous aids (food, medicine, 
clothing and etc) to these people. Can someone please 
enlightened me with this issue.

I recall that I did invite Ben to hang out here and defend his 
views (which are fairly unpopular here).  And Zac? You wouldn't 
by any chance be Ben's roommate, now would you?  If you have 
views that you believe you can defend intelligently, please open 
a discussion here, where we may ALL contribute.  I doubt 
seriously that anyone here wants to message you.  And, what is 
AIM anyway?  Some new ICQ ripoff?

Whenever I watch an 
American movie, I wonder what is America trying to sell? For 
example, Americans in this forum are trying to tell the world 
that they are good people and trying to spread good cultural 
values ...why are there SO MANY American movies and TV programs 
showing American people think is morally correct showing them-
selves having illegal sex? When I say Americans are devils 
trying 
to spread mischiefs on earth ....SHOULD THEY BE ANGRY?

---------------------------------------------------------------

 This was from your first post tigger. Shame be upon you for
watching American movies and WWF. Now you, and I both know you 
been watching all that illegal sex every chance you get! Can
you smell what the rock is cookin?
 America is in Afghanistan for a clearly defined mission, when
its done it will be done. You really need not worry your formula
cluttered mind over it. We understand the danger in that
godforsaken country as well as the British do, who will have an
even rougher go of it as peacekeepers. Now if your theory on
the Afghans, as a ruthless, stab you in the back people is
correct, what will be the mental effect of the medium to heavy
bombing of the Taliban be on them? You say make them mad. I say
it will one hell of a respect gainer. That and the most important
fact they can now watch movies, just like you. And maybe have a
beard, or not. I wont go on, most know what the Afghans were
denied under Taliban/al-Qu'eda rule. 
 Tigger, always with the math! You keep count and keep us posted.

Fact Finder,
I don't claim to have all the facts.  But, from the perspective 
I see, the poor in Afghanistan and in Iraq seem to be used as 
pawns, not valued as citizens.  

In Iraq, there have been economic sanctions brought about by us 
because Saddam Hussein won't comply with the U.N. inspections to 
be sure that he isn't building weapons of mass destruction.  
He's managed to find loopholes in these sanctions to sell oil 
and hide the money to buy weaponry with, while allowing the poor 
to starve while telling them that they are starving because of 
our sanctions.  If he truly cared about them, he certainly has 
the resources to take care of them...but, he doesn't.  He builds 
his bunkers to hold his ammo dumps under schools and hospitals 
so that we would be forced to kill innocent civilians in order 
to attack his armed forces.

The Taliban did the same sorts of things in Afghanistan.  They 
hid weapons in a food storage building.  When we discovered this 
and destroyed the weapons (and the food) we were scolded for 
destroying food supplies for the poor...they neglected to 
mention the arms and ammo that was also destroyed.

I've heard that even educated Muslims who KNOW that the Koran 
prohibits many of the actions of the Taliban were afraid to 
speak out for fear.  Many have been killed for speaking.  And, 
their widows buried in mass graves alive.

The non-Muslims that you see handing out food and medicine do so 
because they believe that God wants them to tend to the needs of 
the poor.  They also teach the message of other 
religions...Christianity is probably the main one.  Hunger makes 
people listen.  

The only good news that I've heard so far is that the Pakistani 
government will be shutting down schools that teach the twisted 
violent message of the Taliban and other Fundamentalist Muslims.

Zac,
"All your talk about age, and the future, and college...those 
are sad excusses for a defense. Can't anyone reply to what he's 
saying, and not just who he is, it shouldn't fucking matter how 
old he is, or what he plans to do with his life, the fact is, 
you people don't have anything real to say, so you pick on his 
age...or wording."

It also just occurred to me that you probably don't know how 
many times, and from how many different angles every aspect of 
this has been covered in this forum.  Check the archives and you 
will probably be able to understand why we don't jump in to 
explain it all again to every new person that comes in.

If either of you comes in with something "real" to say, and 
a "real" desire to discuss it, you'll find plenty of people here 
who will converse with you intelligently.  If you come in with 
a "fuck-all" attitude...you'll reap what you sow.

Hi Justice U.S.A.,
I'm sorry I've put off my reply to your earlier post.  It sounds 
as though you are having a really rough day today.  Let me pour 
you a glass of Zinfandel, and I'll just sit here and listen 
until you feel better.

One sad thing about America's youth is that they've "killed" so 
many people in their video games that they don't get that death 
is real.  That's one advantage most of the kids here where I 
live have.  We take them hunting...they kill something...they 
understand death.  It's a whole different duck than images on a 
screen that they can erase and do over.  I imagine that Ben and 
Zac's posts have been hard on you being as close to the scene as 
you are.  You are still breathing the smell of death every day, 
while most of us have been able to move on (more or less).  Try 
to forgive them the foolishness of their youth and lack of life 
experience.  They'll understand someday.

In the meanwhile, know that you have friends here who care about 
you, and about what it is to be where you are.  If you need me, 
I'm here. Hugs!

Dear Mullah, 
I can't wait to hear how the video was.  Atlas Shrugged was a 
book I wish I'd read when I was 18 and thought I knew everything.
I'm sure you'll enjoy it.  I found while I was reading it that I 
could only read a page or two at a time, because each thing I 
read set of a new train of thought that HAD to be let run to 
it's conclusion.  I don't find many books that affect me as 
profoundly as that one did.

Nice to see you posting!

Ayn Rand movie.
I'll be back later.

May you be blessed a thousand blessings from above,
Mullah Enaud
 
Please visit our new state site:
www.Afghansas.com

"I admit, I'm elitest, it saves a lot of time.  It 
bores me to argue with the mass of you about the same issues 
over and over".
-------------------------------------------------------------
 You are a elitist in your mind, you have have not argued one
single issue even once here.
-------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------

Zackoff, the coatail grabber:

  What the hell was witht that guy? I think, 
anyone who has such a strong opinion on what is right and wrong, 
doesn't need this bullshit. People here quoting their various 
religious texts...just propaganda

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Propaganda. Everything said or written could be considered
propaganda if it is a organized effort to influence. Such as 
you backing up whatever the Bent one has said, even if that is
nothing. You + Him = Propaganda
 JackieChan can you check my math on that one.


---------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------
 Bent, really now. I was totally wrong when I said "an educated
dumbass". I stand corrected. I'll get the un in there next time.
 Since we are all elitists here and all, I just feel I should 
point out what you did to this word, "desturction".

Im sorry, the word destruction was mutilated by your buddy
Zackoff, you are still in the elitist club you Uneducated
dumbass. Zackoff you use the "F" word to much, you are out.
 Will be looking forward to reading your views, Bent, besides
what you expressed in your first post in the days to come.

Hey Ben, feel free to voice your opinion, but try to remember 
the golden rule when communicating. I hear the word 
hypocrisy a lot. Everyone thinks everyone else is a hypocrite. 
In reality, that is because we all are. People do exactly what 
they hate everyday. They say one thing and do another, all 
the while thinking that they are "the only one who really 
understands". I don't discount you for your age so much 
because I am young also (need a lot more experience - 
don't we all?). 

What I want is to live a life where I am free to choose what I 
believe. Honestly, I want the truth! I know most americans 
don't, but I do!! I don't flinch when I see dead babies, I may 
cry, but I do not turn my head! War certainly does suck...I 
don't understand how with all this power we couldn't get 
more aid to Afgans sooner and especially why we can't get 
all the aid we can to them now. I do not like the fact that we 
killed a bunch of Afghans, but I thought that maybe in the 
long run we would be able to help more of them. I still put 
much of the blame for their deaths on Al Qaeda ,but also 
think the US should accept responsibility for the innocent 
deaths. In actuality though this could have been much 
worse if we had gone the Clinton path and retaliated 
immediately with no real plan. I do not like politicians in 
general though because they lie to me and I have no control 
over it (unless I decided to run), however I'll take what I can 
get. Bush freaks me out, frankly. I think he looks insane 
when he keeps talking about all this evil, but I think he 
actually might be more real than most other politicians (not 
everyone can feign a sane look all the time). Anhow, I am 
very interested in freedom. I like the freedoms I have and I 
think it would be great if all people could have the freedom I 
do. 

Back to the topic at hand though, what do you think is a 
solution to this situation? I went back to read your original 
post and you mentioned Iraq. Do you remember anything 
about Saddam Hussein? good greif! Blame America for all 
the starving children - that is getting really really old. You 
could skip the government and go right to the source of "evil" 
that is corporate America. Plenty of greed to go around. Just 
know that greed is not indigenous to the United States of 
America, nor was it born here. 

When you want to make friends with a stranger, don't you 
first do it cautiously, but generously? America gives 
generously out of a vested interest for itself, but one cannot 
take away the fact that we give of ourselves just because 
most of it is done with selfish ends. Are other countries not 
serving their best interests? This is the way the world works; 
you, as an educated person, should know this. People as a 
whole are fond of asking "what's in it for me?" This is 
something I wish would not be the motivating factor for 
everything, but I will not be so naive as to think that all 
people will suddenly start thinking of their neighbor first. I 
am curious to know if you have anything but attacks for the 
people of this board. I am very familiar with elitists and 
"intellectuals" because sometimes I got caught in their 
circular arguments as a Christian in high school. It usually 
didn't get anywhere so I resigned to only arguing when I was 
really bored or felt the other party needed to feel better about 
themselves. However, I don't really want to argue my faith to 
someone who has already scorned it - I am simply 
interested in those facts which pertain to this page. 

I don't know if I have offered any solutions to the problem at 
hand, but that is probably because I do not claim to have any 
solutions. I am curious to see what your opinion of the issue 
is - not of the people giving their opinions. Thank you very 
much.

You'll be doin' alright with your Christmas of white...But I'll 
have a...

Enough of these shenanegans! Time for bed!

God bless us - Every one!

Hi Mullah, I was just writing to see where you are based. Are 
you in Kabul? I am curious to know some first hand 
information that does not come from corporate sponsored 
news. I hope all is well in Afghansas (if you are an Afgan, 
your sense of humor is remarkably American). We're not in 
Afghansas anymore toto! heehee. God bless you too! Good 
night.

"""A fuckin 15,000-pound daisy cutter?I "think"there might be 
a"few"dead.If they aint dead,they're deaf."""

Rumsfeld, "Blah Blah Blah ....."

Military Dude, " ... and I might add the weapon achieved its 
objective ...."

Reporter, " and what was that objective?"

Military Dude, " many dead Al-Quaeda "

Another reporter, " and what are your forces on the ground 
seeing in the area...[where the Daisy Cutter was dropped]?"

Military Dude, "..... many Dead Al-Quaeda" 

Banga! :-)

Bummer man ... no dual ACD for the PC  - even with the good Dr. 
Bott contraptions, pretty freakin cool nonetheless.

Cant make the switch to MAC bud  - sorry.

"Anyway, ahh yes, EagleEye, you pathetic little shit, you're 
are possibly one of the most asanine,(thanks again, whoever that 
was)hypocrital pieces of shit that I have ever had the 
misfortune to come across.  You have the balls to call me 
arrogant when you assume you know enough about me to be able to 
judge me."

 ... the eagle is in utter amazement of the profound nature of 
the above commentary.  So this is what genious reads like? Oh 
my ... staggering.

Apparently the SAT is now scored by how well one can surround a 
mindless thought with a shitload of hyperbolic window dressing.  
You sir are to be congratulated .... touche'

"little shit" --  hehehehehehe that was cute!

Ben ... "You've Got Mail"

"I guess I'm just afraid that invoking Article 5, especially 
after he had rejected treaties that had been agreed upon, might 
not have been a politically smart move.  What do you think?"

Bush didnt Invoke Article 5 single handedly - you give the guy 
too much power - even tho' no one could really stop us for a 
while mind you ....... Which of the rejected treaties is it that 
concerns you?  Does anybody think Bush or USA can make a smart 
move?

"In one place, fires still smoked where the Arab fighters had 
made their morning tea before being overrun by the Mujahidin.The 
trees were burnt and shrivelled, their branches, like arms, 
reaching towards the sky. On remnants of a CBU87 cluster bomb, 
an American soldier had written before dropping his weapon:  For 
those whose dreams were taken, Here are a few nightmares. This 
is gonna shine like a diamond in a goat s ass. 

Nothing quite like American Literature eh Ben?

 

I see now that there are some questions as to whether or not 
this guy is legit or not; (according to Missin's favorite 
paper, 'The Guardian', anyway). One of the Aussie papers says it 
took the guy 17 months to get in 20 hrs. of flying time.

www.smh.com.au/news/0112/10/world/world4.html+afroz&hl=en

Mullah, what's your take on this guy?

Thanks, U.K. I won't forget...I wouldn't have been able to do it 
without all of you...

Hey, Ben!

Just where do you get those 'global' scores?  We just got the 
results for my son's SAT (better than 99% of the nation) and 
they didn't have any global scores on them...how do I find out 
those results?

And how is it that you got to take your SAT in the 7th grade?  
You one of those ing nues?  Most students don't take them until 
they're a Junior or Senior...you must be in those real advanced 
placement classes...

(to the rest of you, didn't that last post from Ben sound an 
awfully lot like our old friend 'Voices'?)

ingenues...(the e disappeared, somehow...it even had that accent 
over it!)

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,33
93794%255E701,00.html

Bin Laden's second wife
By ANNA COCK
11dec01

EVEN the world's most wanted man keeps happy snaps to remember 
his family by.

Pictures of a doe-eyed beauty   believed to be Osama bin Laden's 
second wife   and the pair's four children have been discovered 
in a Kabul flat.
The family portraits were left behind when the bin Ladens 
hurriedly abandoned their ground-floor apartment in the New City 
district of Kabul on November 12.

They show the 44-year-old terrorist's innocent-looking wife   
who looks to be half her husband's age   and four immaculately 
groomed children.

There are no toothy grins for the camera, although bin Laden's 
young son appears to have a cheerful demeanour despite the 
influence of his evil father.

The bin Ladens' landlord, Said Safda Ashamy, told the London Sun 
that the woman and her children received periodic visits from 
the man accused of masterminding the September 11 terrorist 
attacks on the US. 

"They were very quiet and did not go out much," Mr Ashamy said 
of the family. 

"The children used to play in the garden, they also kept goats.

"Bin Laden usually arrived at night and slipped away the next 
day. Sometimes he stayed a few days." 

But on November 12, they all packed up and fled in a convoy of 
vehicles, Mr Ashamy said.

The wife pictured in the photograph which was left behind is 
believed to be bin Laden's second.

He is married to several other women and has fathered 42 
children. Little is known about the women in bin Laden's life   
but the fact that pictures exist of at least one of his wives   
goes against the teachings of the then-ruling Taliban.

Photography of all living things was banned by the Taliban, but 
for bin Laden there were exemptions.

He was allowed to videotape the wedding of one of his sons, 
Mohammed, in January this year and the event was later broadcast 
across the Middle East on Qatari satellite channel Al-Jazeera.

Since the events of September 11, just two members of bin 
Laden's family have commented publicly about his activities.

An 18-year-old son, Abdullah, was quoted in October as saying 
his father was hiding in a cave and would never be caught.

He said bin Laden disappeared in a convoy of 60 trucks filled 
with satellite equipment.


 
  2001 Mirror Australian Telegraph Publications 

 
 

I hope his 18 year old son is right. I do not what the swine 
captured; I want him DEAD.

Good Morning, Everyman!
What is "The Guardian"?  I must have got lost somewhere.

Thanks for info, I really mean, is there any organization that 
belong to muslim group, or charity organization run by muslim 
group that is supporting not only the Afghan but also Indonesia, 
chechen and other poor muslim countries. These countries are not 
under any sanction. Where are the muslim organization to help 
these people. Example, are group like Red Cross and Salvation 
Army. A lot of these volunteer have died when things gone bad in 
the countries they were helping.

Hey Eagle-Eye,
Actually, I thought that the decision to invoke Article 5 WAS 
done by one person, but, maybe you're right.

My concern is that it's the first time in 42 years of existence 
that it's ever been invoked.  And, from what E.S.D. posted, it 
sounded to me as though the other countries involved might not 
be wholeheartedly in support.  I'm wondering why that might be.  
The only thing I could think of was that Bush DID reject 
something like four different treaties or agreements in the 
first 6 months of office that our country had backed initially.

I can't speak for what others think of Bush and our country, 
only my own opinion.  As I've stated before, we may not ALWAYS 
do exactly the right thing, but we do try to.  Bush has, in my 
opinion, made his share of mistakes...and he told us during his 
campaign that he was going to make some of them.  A lot of 
people chose to vote for him anyway.  I have no desire to go 
into all that in this forum now though.  The fact is...he is 
president, and I support that...and I support what he's done so 
far in going after the Taliban, bin Laden, and al-Quaeda.  I 
think he's done his best.  I think it's good to think ahead 
though, in reference to what may come.

Dear Fact Finder,
I'm sorry, I truly don't know the answer to your question.  I 
personally haven't had a lot of contact with the Muslim 
communities here.  I have large gaps in my knowledge of the 
Muslim faith...I don't know if they are commanded by Allah to do 
this type of work.  I've never heard of any organizations that 
do that, but that I've never heard of them means nothing.

I do know that some Islamist groups here have gone into the 
ghettos and innercities of America to try to convert young men 
from their lives of drugs and gangs to the followings of Islam.  
And, they have had some success.  Unfortunately, as with the 
Taliban, they are primarily the Fundamentalist groups that don't 
themselves follow the true Muslim faith.  Why is it that only 
the Fundamentalist Muslims seem to be reaching out to the poor, 
and the poor in spirit?  Can you help me understand that?

Walter,
I wanted to address your post of yesterday.

"If you will think about it,the US,and its people couldn't be 
bothered about Afganistan children or the women's rights 
there,and the information about what's been going on there has 
been available for YEARS.But suddenly we CARE.How very big of us 
to notice once it was time to bomb them."

I've heard a lot of this type of sentiment expressed lately, and 
it bothers me.  For a couple of reasons.  First one 
being...you're right.  Except for one part.  I DIDIN'T know.  
And, I don't even know WHY I didn't know.  There is bloodshed 
and oppression all over the world that I have no knowledge of 
until it becomes a big deal here.  Why is that?

But, on the other hand, I also think that if I personally KNEW 
of every single act of oppression, terrorism, slaughter, famine, 
disease, etc etc etc...of every person in the world who was not 
allowed to live freely as I do...who must live in fear for their 
very lives...it would make me crazy.  I think that we do 
intercede sometimes.  I don't know who makes the call on which 
problem we try to address today, but, I believe they have their 
reasons for the ones they get us involved in, and the ones they 
don't.  Walter, think of how many crazies we have right here on 
our own soil.  7 people were killed by a disgruntled employee in 
Indiana last week.  I heard not ONE word of sympathy for those 
people and their families.  Why?  Only 7 people?  The problem is 
too small to address?  The thought of trying to monitor and 
control EVERY crazy in the world makes my head spin.

I do want to give credit to the churches who send missionaries 
to work in countries with problems that most of us don't even 
hear about.  Some Americans DO know...and take action to try to 
help.  Most of us never even hear about the problems.  And, 
sometimes...I feel as though I hear about all I can handle 
without being swamped with depression for all the ones we can't 
help today.

I'm just an average American, Walter.  Do you really think I 
should know about EVERY atrocity in the world?  I'm asking you 
honestly...no sarcasm intended.
 

>>>>>>>>
In any case, yes, I am intelligent, scored in the top 35% of the 
world on my SATs which I was fortunate enough to take in 7th 
grade.
>>>>>>>>

I don't know about any other school districts, but I do know that 
here it is common practice for students to take the SAT in the 
7th or 8th grade.  This shows the parents/school advisors any 
weak spots in the student's knowledge base.  They can then create 
a course load to try to round out said student's education.  
SOMETIMES the student takes the test because of absolute academic 
ability but most times it is just a litmus test.  

Ben,

That you scored in the top 35 percentile is good but don't go 
beating your chest too much because of your age when you took the 
test.  All that it takes is good grades, a school faculty sponsor 
and a check from Mom and Dad.

Some good advice from someone who has been all the way around the 
block (quite a few times, I might add.)  Intelligence will only 
get you so far.  It will open many educational opportunities for 
you BUT experience, patience and self-control is what REAL 
success is built upon.

That is not mindless drivel from any brainwashed culture-whore 
but true and good advice from me to you.

Zac,  When/If Ben posts something real worth commenting on, we 
have/will.  As for us needing to stand up and pay attention 
because he has strong opinions...SO WHAT... we all do.  That is 
why we are here.

Good Morning, Smiley!
Well said, my friend!

I wasn't saying that you,as an individual,should know about,and 
feel responsible for every inhumane act that goes on in the 
world.What I AM saying,because it pisses me off really bad,is 
that we are NOT there on a mission for God,we are not there as 
humanitarians,we are there to fight a war.No matter what Bush(or 
his wife)says,we are bombing their country,we are NOT making 
their lives better,we are destroying farmland and buildings that 
they cannot replace when this is all over.Those are things that 
war does.Soon,the Northern Alliance will begin fighting amongst 
themselves(as they have done time and again),and that country 
will rise again to become the shithole that it was before.But the 
U.S.has known for many years what has been going on there.And no 
one lifted a finger to stop it.I first heard the name Osama bin 
Laden 21 years ago when the CIA was funding him and his followers 
when they were fighting Russia.The CIA helped to build some of 
the caves.About the same time that we were supplying Saddam with 
weapons to fight Iran.In hindsight,we,as a country should maybe 
learn to pick our friends a little better.
 When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones".I don't believe that we are.We 
are just ourselves,and our country has been attacked,and 
something had to be done about it.You can check out murder and 
other crime statistics to find out how wonderful we are.If we are 
going to call ourselves great,and good,we need to take care of 
some contradictions in our actions as humans:all of us,myself 
included.
 Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
that they had enough to eat,and a place to live,only does one 
thing:it features the speaker as a caring human being.Wonderful 
symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one person,anywhere.As 
I've said here before,we as a nation,change the channel when a 
starving child shows up on TV,so that we don't miss"Survivor".We 
were already watching the real show.I've done it,and I am afraid 
of the day when I can't block it out anymore,and may have to go 
to one of these places myself to help,and leave my life in 
Pillowland(LOL) behind.
 I don't believe that we are fighting for freedom everywhere,and 
making the world a safer place.But I do believe we are fighting 
for America,and that's enough.

"But I do believe we are fighting for America,and that's enough."

Now Im understanding .... but hey, I dont ever recall waving the 
flag under the guise of what humanitarian effort we had going on 
here.

I did however "remind" people that there are several very 
large "positive" efforts USA endeavors on each and every day to 
help other world citizens - we do do more than war and bomb 
[though we're obviously better at some things than others]

We're not interested in obliterating the Taliban because of 
their Human Rights records ... people seem to be confusing 
that ... we're kicking their dumb asses because they provided 
safe harbour to bin Lucifer.

Walter,
You make some very good points.  I hope you'll indulge me 
further and allow me to ask some more questions, and maybe make 
a point or two of my own.

"What I AM saying,because it pisses me off really bad,is 
that we are NOT there on a mission for God,we are not there as 
humanitarians,we are there to fight a war.No matter what Bush(or 
his wife)says,we are bombing their country,we are NOT making 
their lives better,we are destroying farmland and buildings that 
they cannot replace when this is all over."

I agree that our troops are not there for any mission for God.  
Our troops are there because we were attacked...as you said.  
However, do you honestly believe that the people who are 
suddenly free enough to watch movies, buy goods in shops, get 
haircuts, etc are not better off than they were a month or two 
ago?  Maybe I just look too hard to try to see good in 
everything, but were I a woman living there, I would consider 
myself better off if I no longer had to worry about being beaten 
to death should my burkah fall off in the street.  We had 
American missionaries there before this war to aid the sick and 
the hungry. I can't help but feel that our troops have made this 
a safer place for those missionaries to return to in order to 
continue their work.

However...a lot does depend on whatever government is in power 
next...as you pointed out.
"Soon,the Northern Alliance will begin fighting amongst 
themselves(as they have done time and again),and that country 
will rise again to become the shithole that it was before."

Do you know of anything we can do about that other than have the 
peacekeeping troops there as is planned?  The reality to me, is 
that we NEEDED the Northern Alliance to go after bin Laden.  
Just as we NEEDED bin Laden to help Afghanistan repel the 
Soviets.  Just as we NEEDED Iraq's help with Iran during the 
rule of Khomeini.  Yes, it does seem that everytime we NEED 
someone, and help someone, we get bitten in the ass for it.  
But, what are the alternatives?  Do you think that our 
involvement in any of the above was a bad move?  Didn't we HAVE 
to be there to protect the interest of either our own country or 
our allies?  I think there is just a whole lot of gray area here.

"When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones".I don't believe that we are."

I too wish he wouldn't make statements like that...I think it's 
political posturing in an effort to get Christian votes 
(especially since he made a bunch of them mad by approving the 
stem-cell deal).  But, as a whole...I think we are good.  
Certainly, not every one of us is.  We have our fair share of 
crazies, and misguided, and purely evil people in this country.  
There's no doubt of that.  But, when the country makes a move as 
a whole...I truly believe that we BELIEVE we are doing the RIGHT 
thing...the thing that is best for all concerned.  Of course, 
any move we make will have some people who don't agree...that's 
America.  In my country, I have the RIGHT to be WRONG.

I believe that most people in this country DO care.  And, maybe 
they can't make themselves sit through yet another "hungry 
child" infomercial...most of us have seen them 50,000 times or 
so already.  I think that people show that they care in the only 
ways most of them can...by sending money to charities and 
churches who will send people there to work on the problems.  We 
have stuff here that needs dollars and people too, and so what 
we send gets divided.  What REALLY pisses ME off is the 
charities like the Red Cross who use 70-80% of the money WE give 
them to help with these things for ADMINISTRATION costs.  Once 
you start looking at how much of the money you send gets lost in 
the shuffle...it makes you want to stop contributing to those 
types of charities.  One bad one gives them all a bad name.  I'd 
like to see a new law on the books that limits administration 
costs to no more than 20%...or maybe 10% would be even better!  
And, I think a lot of churches are just as bad...funneling the 
lion's share of contributions into building bigger, badder 
buildings to attract more money.  I agree there is much wrong 
with this country in the way that it deals with issues that need 
help...both here and elsewhere.  But, until someone gets a 
lawmaker's ear through a lobby group...nothing is going to 
change.

I think anytime we fight for freedom anywhere, we are fighting 
for America.  I think this current conflict proves that.  We 
should have gone after this group long before now, but we 
didn't.  We HAVE gone after other groups though...and maybe 
never even heard what we did because it was a covert operation.  
And, who knows, we may have taken care of a problem 15 years ago 
that would have culminated in an even larger attack if left 
unchecked.

I don't have all the answers, Walter.  I don't think anyone 
does.  It's just not all black and white...that's all I know.

I know that you were addressing Missin' in your previous post but 
there are some points that need to be made concerning it.

>>>>>>>
But the U.S.has known for many years what has been going on 
there.And no one lifted a finger to stop it.
<<<<<<<

As unpopular as it is to believe, the US does not always feel the 
need to interfere with another country's internal affairs.  We 
are really damned if we do and damned if we don't.  On the one 
hand people scream "Why are we sticking our noses in other 
countries' business?", then when we don't do anything we get 
blasted for not caring for others?!!?  So, which is it to be???

>>>>>>>>
When Bush makes his statements about the"Evil Ones",it heavily 
implies that we are the"Good Ones"
<<<<<<<<

There is a difference between evil and bad (or NOT good.)  Just 
because someone is not evil it does not mean they are good.  When 
my children were small they misbehaved (and got punished) but 
that did not mean they were evil.  Evil has an underlying intent 
on destruction and hurt.  To not be evil DOES NOT imply to be 
good!

>>>>>>>>
Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
that they had enough to eat,and a place to live,only does one 
thing:it features the speaker as a caring human being.Wonderful 
symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one person,anywhere
<<<<<<<<

It is true that talk is cheap but I also see much action in the 
circles I run with.  I personally ran a food pantry for 
needy people for 6 years.  A friend of mine and her sister take 
street people in, help them get cleaned up, get a job and 
overcome their difficult situations.   NEITHER of us get paid 
for the work we do.  We have to fight and scrape and sacrifice 
our own comfort to bring help to these people.  We are not funded 
for this work.  Many times we do not even get 'Thanks.'  Please 
do not put all Americans into the "me" mentality.  Many Americans 
have a very big heart and are willing to sacrifice to help 
others.

NBC, MSNBC AND NEWS SERVICES 
Dec. 12    The American Taliban fighter being held by Marines in 
Afghanistan has told U.S. intelligence officials that the al-
Qaida extremist network plans to launch a biological attack 
against the United States within days, The Washington Times 
reported Wednesday, citing U.S. intelligence officials. 
JOHN WALKER, 20, of Fairfax, Calif., who was captured with other 
Taliban fighters near Mazar-e-Sharif this month, told 
intelligence debriefers at a Marine base near Kandahar where he 
is being held that  Phase II  of al-Qaida s war on the United 
States would occur at the end of the Muslim holy month of 
Ramadan, the report said. 
Ramadan ends Sunday. 
The third phase of al-Qaida s war would lead to destruction of 
the entire United States, he told interrogators, the newspaper 
said. 

Talking about how much we care about other people,and wishing 
                 that they had enough to eat,and a place to 
live,only does one 
                thing:it features the speaker as a caring human 
being.Wonderful 
                 symbolism.But symbolism does not feed even one 
person,anywhere
                                            <<<<<<<<

                It is true that talk is cheap but I also see much 
action in the 
                    circles I run with.  I personally ran a food 
pantry for 
                needy people for 6 years. --------
What you just said here is exactly what I'm talking about.I must 
not be saying things correctly.I refer to this part of the same 
post:I am afraid 
                of the day when I can't block it out anymore,and 
may have to go 
                   to one of these places myself to help,and 
leave my life in 
                                     Pillowland(LOL) behind.
Do you get my meaning?If you really care about something,take 
action,and do something!If you care about the homeless and 
unfortunate,your heart and soul will make you do something to 
help,unless you can block it out.I'm talking about America as a 
whole,and you know as well as I do that if we all took a part,and 
decided to do something about our problems here,we would have 
something that would amaze everyone,including 
ourselves.Utopia?Probably not,but much closer.
 Your statement:There is a difference between evil and bad (or 
NOT good.)  Just 
               because someone is not evil it does not mean they 
are good.---------I agree.What I'm talking about is the WAY it 
has been implied.Reread Bush's statements if you will,and you 
might see what I mean.You might not agree.That's OK.
 

What do you suggest that we do about all the poor here, the 
crazies here, the misguided (read gangbangers) here...as a 
whole, Walter?  I'm open to ideas...especially those that would 
lead us closer to a Utopian state.  Right now, the only option I 
seem to have to find anything resembling Utopia is to head for 
the woods (as I do every weekend...and will do soon for good) 
and ignore the rest of the world.  

Welfare was supposed to help the poor, wasn't it?  Didn't it 
instead create more poor.  Here in Arkansas, Clinton (in his 
days as Governor) reduced the welfare roles by over half by 
limiting the number of years you could ride on welfare.  He did 
this because we had 4th and 5th generation welfare families who 
raised their young daughters with the goal of getting pregnant 
as soon as they possibly could do so in order to get a check.

Social security was supposed to help people who weren't good at 
saving money retire...guess who's in line at the local DHS 
office when their gas bill goes up due to an ice storm? I'm 
actually in support of Bush's plan (not his own, it's been 
around for decades) to allow some of what we put into Social 
Security to be put into personal retirement accounts.  However, 
when you look at the nuts and bolts of the plan...it doesn't 
work any better than what we have now.

The problem with any type of government or large charity social 
program is that there is way too much wasted on administration.  
Paul Harvey spoke in my hometown about 15 years ago.  At that 
time, he said that you could give every man, woman, and child 
who live below the poverty level in this country $14,000 a year, 
and we'd save TRILLIONS each year.  At the time, that's about 
what I was making working full time as an office manager.  To 
say I was pissed off is to put it mildly.

Again, I don't have all the answers.  I'm desperately searching 
for some.

However, do you honestly believe that the people who are 
                 suddenly free enough to watch movies, buy goods 
in shops, get 
                 haircuts, etc are not better off than they were 
a month or two 
                     ago?  Maybe I just look too hard to try to 
see good in 
                 everything, but were I a woman living there, I 
would consider 
                myself better off if I no longer had to worry 
about being beaten 
                   to death should my burkah fall off in the 
street.

 Yes,going to a movie,or getting a haircut would be nice for 
them,but do you think their monetary system is holding up very 
well?I'm free to go and see a movie,but not if I don't have any 
money.And if I had to choose between being afraid,or having my 
children killed by bombs,or starvation,its easy to guess what I'd 
choose.And the reality of it for them sucks.And like I said to 
Smiley,I must be saying things incorrectly,because I'm not 
getting my point across.I'm not saying I know how we should have 
done things.I'm saying that we are not saving Afghanistan,and 
that we should stop saying we are.Believe what you want.New York 
is a much safer place to live now also.The crime rate is way 
down,and people are nicer to each other than they have been in 
years.I'm sure they'd give it all up in a minute to have those 
people back.

:I believe that most people in this country DO care.  And, maybe 
                   they can't make themselves sit through yet 
another "hungry 
                 child" infomercial...most of us have seen them 
50,000 times or 
                so already.------------------
 All I can say about that is that I don't believe most people 
WATCH them at all,I think they change the channel,so they don't 
become offended.And I don't believe most people care,they SAY 
they do,but I think that most are actually indifferent.I'm basing 
this on conversations I've had with people all of my life.From 
millionaires to bums.If you've(I'm not being a smart ass)met 
better people with more humane ideas,I'm glad,and also jealous,I 
would have liked to have met more of them myself.

And by the way:I lived very close to Garfield,Arkansas for 3 
months.A real party.A state trooper told me:"We don't like you 
Mexicans down here"(I'm not Mexican,but had a summer tan,but I 
wasn't going to argue the point).It was a lot of fun though.

I don't know where Garfield is.  I'll take your word for the 
story of the bigoted trooper though.  We definitely have our 
share of rednecks here.  But, we also have a maybe 
proportionately large population of people who DO care about 
others.  Or maybe it's just that I choose MY friends with care.  
I don't know where you live.  I know that some parts of the 
country are friendlier than others, but I visited NYC twice 
before the attacks, and I found people there friendly too.  
Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have some quality in my demeanor 
that attracts people like that.  I can't explain the difference 
in our views.  I gather that you are probably close to my age, 
so I can't toss it off as being the "youth of today" (which 
generally means, the youth that haven't yet figured out that 
they don't know everything).  I'm 44.  

I just heard on the radio that Bush signed an Act for 
Afghanistan Women and Children this morning.  I haven't yet 
found an article on the Act...but, I understand it to be an 
ongoing pledge of support from America to the people of 
Afghanistan.  Great timing, eh?

Walter,
In re-reading my above post...I think I should clarify that 
comment about the "youth of today".  I meant that maybe that was 
who you come into contact with the most.  NOT, that I would 
consider you one who believes they know everything.  Sorry it 
wasn't clear.

I just got a Breaking News email from MSNBC. All four of the 
crew members of the B-1 Bomber that crashed in the Indian Sea 
this morning have been RESCUED! Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Things that could be done to help bring it closer:
1.Education,education,education!
2.A flat tax.Paid when purchasing anything besides food 
and housing.Billions of dollars of uncollected income from 
illegal activity.Why should you or I pay more taxes than anyone 
else?
3.Welfare:every month,they turn in a report on a book that 
they've read.Can't read?We'll teach you(teaching people to read 
programs are availible in many states already,they are rarely 
used).If they won't read the book,they don't get the check.Three 
strikes and the children go to a better place.If they won't even 
read a book to make sure their children have food,and a decent 
place to live,we can assume that they don't care much about them 
at all.
4.Jail and Prison:A sentence means what it says:5 years means 5 
years.Good behaviour?If you were capable of conducting yourself 
correctly,you wouldn't be there in the first place.
 Work crews would perform public services.Cleaning parks,rest 
areas,etc.Give the rest of society a reason to want you back in 
it.No work-no food,just like in real life.
5.A national draft.Not only military duty,they could pick and 
choose between various choices;but some kind of public duty.Many 
will benefit from the experience of doing something important,and 
will begin to understand who they are,and understand that they 
are needed(very important).

I understand better now the point you were trying to make.  I 
don't fully agree, but as you said "That's OK."  

The disparity in our views, I am sure, comes from a difference in 
lifestyle and social contact.  If you have not gathered I am a 
Christian so most of my social interaction is with other 
Christians.  Our church if very missionary and community minded.  
We believe in aiding not only those overseas but put a lot of 
effort into helping those in our community.  I must emphasize, we 
get no compensation, no recognition.  As a matter of fact many 
times our help is repaid with the proverbial 'slap in the face.'  

As for the people in Afghanastan, I believe in the long run they 
will be better off.  Do you remember the choice the Pilgrims made 
to face this bold, new world?  They sacrificed EVERYTHING, homes, 
comfort, wealth and even families because they believed that when 
all was said and done life would be better.  A driving factor in 
this, I might add, was to be able to worship God freely.  

Freedom comes with a BIG price tag.  They currency is most often 
human lives.

I don't mean this post in an antagonistic way, so if it sounds 
that way I am truly sorry.  I am just trying to help you 
understand where I come from when responding to anyone's post.

Or maybe it's just that I choose MY friends with care.  
                  I don't know where you live.  I know that some 
parts of the 
                  country are friendlier than others, but I 
visited NYC twice 
                  before the attacks, and I found people there 
friendly too.  
                Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have some quality 
in my demeanor 
                that attracts people like that.-----------
Now if you look at this,it sure looks like a personal attack.I 
also choose my friends with care.I have friends I've known since 
childhood,and an ex-wife that I love,and I'm sure that she feels 
the same way about me.But I didn't refer to only my friends in my 
post.I said people I've had conversations with all my life.And 
that number is in the thousands.I have met decent people who do 
care,but most have make it clear that they don't.
 A couple of days before the attack,I was in a shop when a poorly 
dressed man came in and started looking around.A woman in the 
shop said"Make him leave,I can smell him from here!",very 
loudly,and then began to talk to her friend about her church 
activities.I went up to her and asked if it was spitting on the 
poor,or was it kicking old people this week?Not exactly a good 
advertisment for Christianity was she?

I agree with almost every single thing you said, Walter.  Now 
the question is, how do we get these things to happen?  And, I'd 
like to add a little too.
1. Education-Why do we allow kids to drop out of school at 16?  
And, even younger if their parent's agree.(as in pregnant teens, 
as those on welfare might if it means a bigger check at their 
house) How can we make education mandatory? No driver's licenses 
without passing grades?  What about education for people who are 
too ignorant to raise children to know that they have 
options...such as the majority of welfare recipients?  

2. I definitely agree with the flat tax.  This country's 
socialist programs have ridden on the backs of people who 
actually work and produce for far too long.  Ask any truckdriver 
how hard it is for them to make a living these days.  That's 
what had me so buffaloed about Bush's idea to allow Mexican 
truckdrivers to come in freely and run our highways when it's 
already so hard for trucking companies in the U.S. to keep their 
profits up because of all the rules and taxes.  Taxing illegal 
activity?  The way I read your post, you pay tax on anything 
except food and housing, right?  Like a super sales tax?  One 
question...Here we are already paying nearly 8% sales tax. that 
goes to various city, county, and state coffers.  Are you saying 
that the flat sales type tax should be over and above that?  If 
so, how much?  And, what about people who are good at saving?  
If they saved their money, they would avoid paying tax on it?  
Or, did you mean a flat tax on income?
3. I do like that idea about having to read a book a month. What 
about requiring parenting classes as well?  How could we get 
such a program instituted...and more importantly how much would 
it cost?  I work with DHS offices, and they spend huge amounts 
of their resources(our tax dollars) now providing for crazy 
things like translators for the non-English speaking applicants, 
or the deaf applicants.  Every minority...no matter how small 
has to be treated in a special kid-gloves manner by the agencies.
Sidenote-My one visit as an applicant was when I, just after the 
birth of my daughter, could no longer afford to live in my home, 
and sought assistance with subsidized rent.  I made $5 per hour 
at the time...and paid $40 per week in daycare.  I was told that 
I made $700 per year too much money to receive help...but if I'd 
just have another baby, they could fix me right up!  See why I 
think these socialist programs are such bullshit?
4 & 5-I'm with ya all the way!

Hi Missin'--maybe I got mixed up thinking it was one of your 
posts; (might have been allati2d) 'The Guardian' is one of 
those 'tabloid' papers in Britain. 

Walter,
I apologize if that sounded like a personal attack to you.  I 
didn't mean it that way.  Let me see if I can explain it better.

First point, some parts of the country ARE friendlier than 
others, yes?  And, more polite?  I feel as though I've been 
lucky to grow up here where life is on a slower pace...people 
don't get as stressed out as they do in bigger cities for the 
most part.  This allows people to walk around NOT expecting to 
have people treat them rudely.  I think what you were saying 
about New York before the attack is probably true.  People there 
are/were subjected to rudeness much more often than I've ever 
been.  People who act that way down here don't get much in the 
way of sympathy or understanding...they just get labeled a jerk 
and left alone.  When you grow up in a place where (most)people 
are kind and polite, then you walk around with a much more open 
demeanor.  People in NYC walk around with their eyes on the 
ground a lot, it seems.  I noticed a few, I've heard a lot of 
people say that they do.  I on the other hand, walked across 
Central Park three times the last Sunday I was there and much of 
the time I was watching the people around me.  I met many eyes, 
and shared many smiles, and some words with many strangers.  I 
got the feeling that even though MY behaviour was perhaps 
considered odd there, it wasn't unwelcome.  

I guess my real question was based on the fact that you seem to 
have a fairly low opinion of the average American, and I don't.  
I have to believe that the only difference between us is the 
types of people that we normally encounter.  

The part about choosing MY friends wisely, was really in 
reference to what you said about us as a country not choosing 
our friends wisely...not about you personally.  Like Smiley, I 
tend to hang out with people who are spiritual, even if not 
strictly religious.  I know very few people who would ever admit 
that they don't care about others...it's just not done down 
here...it's considered rude.

Hey Everyman,
I think I made a reference to U.K. Vices reading tabloids 
once...maybe that was how it stuck in your mind?  No problem. 
Thanks for the reply! :-)

Sorry, I think I'm ready for my nap now.  This post was from Me 
to You...not the other way around! LOL

From: Walter 
To: Missin' 
Subject: Apologies 
Date: Wed Dec 12 15:50:08 2001 
Message:

No, Walter, she definitely wasn't what I would consider a good 
role model for Christians.  I have a boss who's kind of like 
that too.  Unfortunately, I think there are a lot like her.  I 
know at times I've said things that I was truly sorry enough for 
that I needed to say a prayer of confession and repentance 
myself.  This seems to be just one more example of why it's so 
important to NOT lump people all into groups.  Each of us is 
human, each of us has gifts and talents, each of us has flaws.  
Each of us who believes in God is responsible for his or her own 
relationship with God.

I think the media plays a part in reporting so much "bad news" 
that we end up with a view of the big, bad, ugly world out 
there.  The first time my son & I took a cross-country trip by 
car, I found that as a whole, people are friendly, caring, and 
that the country isn't nearly as terrible as it is portrayed.  
MOST people are fairly considerate.

I've often thought that we need to have some "Good News" papers 
to let people know about the positive things in life...there ARE 
many...

Walter,
I am truly sorry that someone who claims to represent the church 
would be acting in such a manner.  I personally would have 
pulled her aside and told her exactly how her behavior hurt God's 
people.  People like that just jerk my chain.  I have to 
remember, however, that Christ died for the hypocrite as much as 
any other sinner, myself included.  I have certainly done my 
share of damage to the witness of Christ.

Like our preacher says at times "The church would be great if it 
wasn't filled with people!"  We all in the church recognize that 
there are definitely problems but we also realize that if people 
wer